This episode features an interview with Renee Wynn, the CEO of RP Wynn Consulting and previous CIO of NASA. She discusses NASA’s approach to IT, the US government and cloud computing, the role collaboration plays on the international space station, and much more.
This episode features an interview with Renee Wynn, the CEO of RP Wynn Consulting and previous CIO of NASA. She discusses NASA’s approach to IT, the US government and cloud computing, the role collaboration plays on the international space station, and much more.
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Steve Hamm: [00:00:00] So Renee, it's great to have you on. And it occurs to me. We've been doing this for two going on under the third year now, and I don't think we've ever really had a government person on. So it's really a different perspective. And since you're going to talk to us about NASA and the EPA, I think those are very interesting areas for a lot of people.
So I'm really looking forward to talking to you here. So, uh, if you would please start by describing kind of your recent history with NASA. You know, you were an important technology leader there just really a tremendous, you know, a tremendous agency that a lot of people have a lot of interest in, and that really has to use deploy a lot of it in addition to all those other kinds of technology.
So tell us about that. But also I know that you're now working as a consultant, RP, wind consulting. So tell us a little bit about that.
Renee Wynn: Yeah, Steve, it's great to be on the [00:01:00] show today and wow. The first government officials that I'm very excited to present to the listeners, maybe a perspective of being a 30 year a United States, federal government employee, who took an oath to the United States constitution and someone who still carries it with her whenever she travels with her computer.
So I'm excited to be here today. So my last five years with the United States government was serving at NASA and I had the privilege of being the chief information officer for the entire agency where I ran. Uh, global operations for it services, including off the globe. So FEMA, hope we get to talk a little bit about serving the astronauts from the United States government, as well as other countries who were also on the international space station.
It's very exciting to be able to support that also very scary I might add. Um, and so it was great fun, and it was a [00:02:00] lot of hard work, especially when you look at cybersecurity and you look at the satellites that have been in. Uh, since the seventies and they're still very much operational and providing data for the benefit of humanity, sometimes, you know, weather data, information about the earth, or just information about our solar system or the universe.
And those systems were developed when cybersecurity really wasn't on people's minds. And so we did some, we had to do a lot of work to really take a look at the risks associated with space and space operations. So that was a lot of. Uh, to do that, it was also very educational. I had to, as the CIO, I needed to sit and learn first and foremost, before we took off doing anything before we hit launch.
So I'll go ahead and use that joke once, at least during all of this. So at my time at NASA was really providing a global improved [00:03:00] global cybersecurity posture, as well as the space posture for NASA, and then providing it services and handling. Uh, an it transformational project that affects the entire agency, which kicked off then a second transformational project, which is nearly finished.
Now. I turned that over to my deputy. And before that I was at EPA and I spent 25 years there. And most of that time was spent in mission, the cleanup of highly contaminated properties, super fund program, as it's known. And I focused on the facilities that were owned and operated by the department of defense and the department of energy.
So I worked in a bit of a niche market, uh, but I got to learn about nuclear waste as well as unexploded ordinance. Not things that you graduate from college saying that you're going to learn.
Steve Hamm: Very important things that we know that, Hey, you know, when I think about NASA, [00:04:00] you know, NASA is an innovator and also an early adopter of space exploration technology. And, but is NASA or is NASA also an early adopter of information technology,
Renee Wynn: Well, I think it depends. So everything in space is a one of a kind. And so Steve, you're absolutely right to imagine bringing data back about the universe. You have to convert that into questions and then those questions have to get converted into capability, technical capability, and then you have to design things, you know, with batteries and sensors, propulsion systems, uh, and, and the, like for our, what I always call the flying acid.
When it comes to it for the it that is attached to an, uh, a flying asset, as I've mentioned before, you have to be very careful with changes. If you can make those changes, because though [00:05:00] you don't want to disrupt the capability or the integrity of the data that you're bringing back. Um, because a lot of times you do a data comparison, you know, 1969 to 1980, and you want the integrity to all be the same.
So you're comparing apples to apples when it comes to Terra firma, and what's going on down here and maybe the more typical business it enterprises there was, there are times when NASA was very receptive to that change because they saw a need that an innovative technology. Be used for, and that's always great sort of a mission application or a mission support application when you needed to change the whole entire enterprise, it was much more complicated and a much larger presence.
[00:06:00] And so that's when people would become a lot more cautious because they didn't want to break existing processes. To me, the big changes that I faced to deal with was more about the process change and what that would do with mission and mission support and less about adopting change and new innovation.
Steve Hamm: Right, right.
Renee Wynn: And, but I will say that the cyber security side was a little. Even more anomalous than what I've just mentioned, because it's not something that people generally understand. It's an invisible threat. It is hard to describe to people because we can't see our data being stolen and that, so that took a lot more imagination to help people understand the importance of.
Steve Hamm: Alright. Alright, cool. Hey, you know, we didn't talk about [00:07:00] RP, wind consultant. Tell us a little bit about that.
Renee Wynn: It's Steve. So when I left the government, it was at the beginning of the pandemic. In fact, I delayed my retirement to make sure things were a little bit more settled instead of leaving on March 31st, 2020. And, uh, I was going to go back to work. I hope to go back to work, but it was also a hard time for businesses to be thinking about bringing on, you know, another executive.
Um, and after organizing a few things around my house, uh, I was completely bored and I was approached by a couple of businesses to say, could you help us out? Can we use your experience at NASA and in the federal government to help us be better? And they asked me to be a 10 99. And Steve I promptly asked what's that then after getting that lesson, I then turned and got [00:08:00] out on board, a couple of lawyers and they got myself started.
And I talked to a few people that have coached me through starting my own business. So I ended up with actually a four prong strategy or portfolio in my business. I do independent consultants to businesses, a couple of tech firms. I do some public sector advisory boards for some very technical businesses.
Then I am going to serve on corporate boards beginning this year. And then finally, probably in 2023, I'll be, I hope to sign on with a venture capitalist firm to help consult with them on bringing, uh, evaluating technology hardware and software businesses, uh, for future use across the globe. So that's what.
Steve Hamm: well, that is going to be fascinating. I mean, the whole thing sounds interesting, but that I think working with the VCs, getting that those first peaks and some of these great ideas [00:09:00] and figuring out, you know, is this going to be the killer app of our era? That it must be so exciting. So I think that'll be great for you.
Renee Wynn: Yeah, I I've a lot. I am very fortunate and I've set up a strategy that is both short-term to long-term and looking at the corporate boards in the VC work. And, um, you know, having that around for longterm, I will stay with my clients in the public sector, advisory boards in the independent consulting, as long as they'll have me.
Um, but I did have to do some soul searching in terms of what was feasible from a long-term business plan.
Steve Hamm: Yeah. Hey, let's look backwards. Now, 30 years in the government in these executive positions, many of them, what are the most important lessons that you've learned about large governmental organizations adopting and putting to use next generation technologies?
Renee Wynn: What I've learned. And this is an [00:10:00] underscore, is it's all about people. It's people and myself included. We get attached to our technology. We know how to use it. We're very proficient at it. And then you get a simple update and the buttons aren't where you thought they were. And now all of a sudden things that were a muscle memory, so to speak have now come back to the forefront of how do I, how can I do this?
And maybe some things broke. You might've had some. Uh, API or something set up in the background and all of a sudden things are breaking into. Now you have to go back and fix it until you feel like a human that you're going backwards when a new technologies either introduced or even an update is simply provided to you.
So my, what I always tried to do, and I'm fortunate to have such a terrific [00:11:00] team at NASA is really focused on how the technology is being used and think about how do we approach sharing with them what's coming and how to prepare for what's coming as an example, I got the opportunity in my career to bring into two separate agencies, office 365 and the cloud, and there's a lot of detail.
Technically that you need to attend to. And then there's a lot of details on the people part. And so when I did it at NASA, we did a lot of short videos, um, tried to make it so people could earn badges by doing more of those videos, by doing more, to prepare themselves. And the team was also able to bring in and do the change over office 365.
Basically most computers only [00:12:00] took about 15 minutes to change. So then we had to figure out how to tell people when the change was over, because they were like, Hey, it didn't work. And then they'd call the help desk. And really it did work. We can tell, go look here at the bottom. So what was very interesting is, as we forgot about the part, if you make it too easy, they might not know that you even done anything for.
Steve Hamm: Interesting. Very interesting. You know, when I think about different kinds of organizations and their, you know, and their goals in their, in their cultures. So I think about Facebook, you know, move fast, break things. Well, you were in exactly the opposite thing. You, you have to use powerful technologies, but you can't break anything.
So how do you manage that? You know, especially in these, you know, especially in, in NASA where, you know, you're, you're flying people around in space and you know, you, you, you know, you just don't want anything bad to happen.
Renee Wynn: [00:13:00] Stephen's various due to view to recognize NAZA's mission. And the first a and national NASA is aeronautics and air safety and sustainability. So imagine the it that supports flying from place to place comfortably and safely. And so technology before you deploy anything has to be tested and the testers have to try and.
Steve Hamm: Yeah.
Renee Wynn: Th that that's the point is if we can break it, because believe me, there were folks at NASA that broke some of the technology because they're that curious and that talented. And so we had to get ahead of them sometimes so that it wouldn't break when they needed it the most. But that comes from any CIO, whether in the federal government or in the private sector, you need to understand how people work and how the technology is enabling the business, or for me, how is technology [00:14:00] enabling the mission?
And then you work backwards from that to, if you can do an upgrade, then you would do an upgrade. There were places we won't do an upgrade. Um, you you're just not gonna do it because like I mentioned before, if it's attached to a flying asset, you can't break it because that data, somebody depends on that data for maybe a scientific thesis or in other cases, we rely on whether it's.
Um, and that's really critical to human safety. Um, when you think of weather data and the like,
Steve Hamm: Yeah. Yeah. Now I want to talk about cloud computing for a minute here. I know that several years ago, I'm not sure exactly what year the U S government began adopting cloud computing. The cloud computing model really aggressively tell us when. And why did that happen? How was the transition gone and how have barriers been over.
Renee Wynn: so, um, I [00:15:00] have been in the tech business. Since cloud computing was available. So I joined at EPA in 2011, and I mentioned that we did office 365. That was the first instance of office 365 in a cloud for the United States government. So, um, so what it really is is that software was being provided as a cloud service software as a service instead of.
Loading it onto everyone's computers and having to go desk side to make sure they got the latest upgrade. And so those changes kind of happened as computer and software and hardware changed for frankly, faster delivery and greater capability, because you could load new capabilities into the cloud capability and then you could turn on and off whether you let it into your computers or not.
And so it was a very exciting, but it also [00:16:00] changed the talent that was needed inside the United States government. And it changed the flavor of partnership. So now national security and cybersecurity was my responsibility at both EPA as well at NASA. And when we controlled the hardware and software, yeah.
It's your mistake and that's scary. Um, but it's your mistake. I've spent since 2011, helping software hardware providers and the government contractors understand the importance of national security and cybersecurity and how the two go hand in hand and at NASA, there was an even an added element of difficulty in that is human safety.
And, um, so at the end of technology, so to speak, as I talk at the end of my technology, we're astronauts in the international space station. And the last thing I wanted was a [00:17:00] cyber event that created an international incident.
Steve Hamm: Right, right.
Renee Wynn: And so people that I worked with, our partners and our vendors. We had to all come to an understanding of the importance of cybersecurity and what you did, you, the vendor provider, what it could mean to NASA.
And we had to do the same. It was definitely a two way street. So it really changed relationships, um, with providers and the United States government. I hope to the benefit, at least in all of my relationships, it was largely to the benefit. And I say largely because people marched to different paces. And so there were certainly some challenging conversations I needed to have with some of the providers about cybersecurity and, um, the importance of making sure that you meet federal standards.
Steve Hamm: Yeah. Yeah. You know, on this podcast, we focus a lot on data and some on big data. I would imagine NASA has a lot of big streaming data. [00:18:00] And how do you, how have you dealt with that? Especially with the cloud platforms, that cloud technologies.
Renee Wynn: Yes. So some of NASA's greatest discoveries or some of the discoveries by scientists across the globe are from data that comes from space. And, um, gosh, at last count, when I left NASA was pulling down. More than 60 terabytes of data per day from space. And I am pretty sure that that has doubled because since I left the Mars Rover with a perseverance, with a helicopter named ingenuity has landed on Mars.
And there's a lot of data coming back from Mars, uh, doing rock samples, um, just selfie pictures, which are great to see. So follow it on Instagram and that. And so that's just gives you an example of the type of data that comes back and data. To me. And [00:19:00] frankly, to NASA, you know, data, it becomes information, information, becomes knowledge and knowledge can become action.
And those actions can be discovering new planets, discovering something more about earth. Um, and it can be improving the capability to predict, let's say hurricanes and happened to have met some folks in that area. And NASA with the NOAA have improved the precision of hurricanes, which is both an economic benefit as well as a human safety benefit.
Um, and so it was great. I mean, that's what data is all about is getting those insights and turning it into benefits and value.
Steve Hamm: Yeah. I think a lot of people are familiar with the kind of the American model for hurricanes and then the European model and how they're a little bit different from each other. Now, of course, most of that comes from Noah, right? Or, or what did, what did NASA, [00:20:00] what does NASA contribute to that?
Renee Wynn: So, um, some of the satellites are Noah satellites and some of them are actually NASA satellites and there are now other satellites that fly and they collect data and that data comes back to earth and that goes into models. There's certainly a big process about what goes into the models to feed and teach the models, how to be better.
And most of those models, actually, all those models are run on high-performance computing and then they do the visualization from that. So, um, it is a partnership with NOAA national weather service, NASA and others, uh, private sector, getting into launching satellites for weather, um, covering continents that may not be as covered as well as the United States. And together that that will improve these models. Um, and maybe we'll see convergence of the models, or maybe we will continue to be separate, [00:21:00] but even in their separation, Steve, you see a lot of learning and exchange of papers and that between, uh, scientists across the globe focused here specifically on hurricanes and modeling.
Steve Hamm: I would think that they've got to converge, right.
Renee Wynn: I, you know, I don't, I, yeah, I don't know. I didn't work in the area. I just know that I got, I, I got a great opportunity. So I had just come from EPA and I got to go over to the Goddard space flight center in Greenbelt, Maryland. And that's where one of NASA's high-performance computing is. And I got to talk to a couple of the scientists that did the hurricane modeling and they demonstrated to me how the model it improved from hurricane regions.
To the hurricane Sandy and both were devastating hurricanes, right. But the model prediction band got much tighter. [00:22:00] So the people beyond the band prediction, they didn't have to drop what they were doing and prepare for a hurricane, right? Because with great certainty, the United States government, in this instance, the certain, you know, the NOAA and the national weather hurricane center could report.
Here's our prediction. Here's our model. Here's our band. So you knew whether you needed to prepare or not. And preparing is a lost opportunity, um, or a change in opportunity because you do want to have safety for your, you know, for people in that. So, um, the conversions, I can't speak to it, but the sharing of the data to make models better, I think we all benefit from that and we see the benefits to them.
Steve Hamm: how does the cloud, the availability of, of, you know, big cloud storage and, and cloud management systems, [00:23:00] how does that affect the ability to do those kinds of models and, and, you know, the massive number of simulations that are done and all that kind of all the machine learning that's done. How does cloud change the name there?
How does cloud change the game there?
Renee Wynn: so cloud can help and I'm an a, I'm going to go maybe to a smaller agency example here. And the reason is, is, well, no, I'll stick with NASA. So first your mission needs to be designed for the cloud use itself. Um, and you have to weigh the benefits and costs of shifting to the cloud. Or housing it at one of NASA's data centers and NASA had, uh, several of them.
I, we were at, we were around 30, I think when we left, when I left, um, that's from memory. [00:24:00] So don't that, that's a hard quote on that. That's a fuzzy quote. How's that? So, um, if you thought that your mission could benefit from the elasticity and scalability of the cloud, like scalability in your compute power, then by all means the mission would start to be designed to that cloud.
And you also have to make sure the cloud provider was going to be around these missions run for decades. I mentioned, uh, uh, I don't think I mentioned by name, but I was thinking of Voyager. Well, that's been, that was launched in the seventies and it is still bringing. Wager to still bringing data down today.
And it was in the news this past summer, because there was a couple issues in getting data, but that's still operating. So from the seventies to the 20, 20 that's 50 years. So you got to think about the longevity of where you're moving your data and, and making sure you can shift your data maybe [00:25:00] from one place to another.
And so we're seeing the uptake and adoption of cloud use considerably at NASA because these missions are being designed with greater scalability. They want the greater elastic city, and you're seeing a lot more onboard compute in your satellites because they're getting more powerful, right? As everything gets powerful here on this planet, we are able to extend that capability to.
Uh, low-earth orbit and beyond. So it is being adopted. It is definitely beneficial. And you do, you weigh your, your data, your compute power, how best to support the mission and the mission's functionality as you predict it. And then you design accordingly. So you will, you definitely see the uptake in that for our satellite missions or for the satellite missions at
Steve Hamm: Yeah, yeah, [00:26:00] no, that's, that's really interesting now without telling any state secrets, hope you can describe one or two of the more interesting technology projects that you oversaw NASA, specifically data heavy ones. I mean, the Mars Rover, I think is after you left, but Hubble, I mean, what was, what was the most data intensive application that you ever dealt with and how did you, how did you manage.
Renee Wynn: So, you know, funny, I'm going to confess now. I just looked at our science missions as science missions, as you know, taped terabytes of data every day and ensuring, and working with our mission direct or science mission directorate, which is divided like heliophysics astrophysics, et cetera, and working with them to make sure that they had the compute power.
And they were shifting definitely to the cloud because they could see greater use of data that [00:27:00] were older and, you know, secondary uses and tertiary uses. And I know the data folks hate for you to use. Term, but, you know, that's what we're really looking at is reusing the data we had in different ways in scientific.
So while I wasn't there for the launch of the Mars Rover, I was there for a good portion of its design and that, and so, um, that was done, that project was led out of the jet propulsion lab of NASA, which is actually a federal facility research and development corporation. So it's quasi federal government, and they were using cloud computing, um, and worked very closely to ensure that they had the right compute power, as well as how to design and collect data and fly a helicopter on another planet. So that is, to me, a really cool use of cloud computing.
Steve Hamm: Yeah. There's not much of an atmosphere there is there.
Renee Wynn: [00:28:00] There is not, there is not, and the really smart folks of NASA and JPL, they figured all of that out.
Steve Hamm: Well, I'm looking forward to that.
Renee Wynn: Yeah. And you know, maybe one of the projects that I got to touch very closely was delivering, um, office 365, migrating the astronauts on the international space station. So that was, um, the international space station is 200 to 400 miles off the face of the earth. And we needed to deliver to the astronauts, their email and upgrade their email system.
So my team, my brilliant team, and, uh, in partnership with the Johnson space center and the international space station program office, we were able to technically figure that out. And we were able to make that switch for the astronauts on space, on station, as we call it. And we delivered office 365 and that was in the clouds.
And we were delivering email above the [00:29:00] clouds.
Steve Hamm: Beyond the clause. Yeah, that's right. That's what, it's very good. You know, I just love the international space station. Just the idea of it's collaborative people from different countries, setting aside whatever tensions there may be between their countries or, or not. And just focusing on the common good of humanity and, and of the advancement of science.
And I just think, you know, collaboration is a hell of a great thing for humanity. And I think, you know, competition has its has its role as well, but I, I think that in the international space station really makes the point that collaborate. I mean, if you can collaborate, you can really do fantastic things.
Renee Wynn: Yeah, you're absolutely right. We saw, um, a lot of great collaborations come from the international space station and, um, And a benefit of relationships with [00:30:00] other countries whose space can be a common bond for folks. And, and it's great. I'll give you an example of a collaboration I personally think is just so amazing.
And so Japan launched a satellite that landed a robot on an asteroid and the United States is did as well. The United States mission was, is, oh, Cyrus Rex. So Japan's sample of an asteroid that came back to this planet in Japan. Japan is sharing some of those samples with United States and those samples will go to the moon rock library.
Yes, there is such a thing at the Johnson space center. So lots of scientists can study. An asteroid that's been taken from space and returned from space without burning up like an asteroid usually
Steve Hamm: Yeah.[00:31:00]
Renee Wynn: Right. And, uh, the United States samples will be back. I think next year, 2023, it might be 20, 24 and I'm confident.
And I know that NASA has policies. We do share our rock library, um, through an application process. Right? And so there'll be shares sharing of those rocks and collaboration with the science and the data that's collected from it. So there's an example of a written recent, and probably something that people didn't realize was going on that samples are being collected from asteroids and being returned to this planet and they're going to be studied and that science is going to be shared across the globe.
And we're going to collaborate over that science.
Steve Hamm: that's great. Have you seen the movie? Don't look up yet?
Renee Wynn: No, I have not yet.
Steve Hamm: Bad thing happens with an asteroid.
Renee Wynn: Yeah, I'll wait
Steve Hamm: a giveaway, the giveaway, the ending. All [00:32:00] right. Hey, you mentioned cybersecurity a couple of times before, and I understand you're preparing a Ted talk about cybersecurity. Can you give us kind of a sneak peek of what you're going to be talking about?
Renee Wynn: Yeah. So I'm very excited and I'm honored to be asked to give a TEDx talk. And my TEDx talk is going to be on cybersecurity and space and the ideas to, um, hopefully continue to advance the focus on making sure that anything launched into space is as cyber secure as it can be. And there's a lot of different techniques that you can use.
So I will talk about a few ways to do that, um, and promoted. What is commonly referred to as good neighbor policies. So low earth orbit is an economic boom right now. Um, more private companies are headed to space and gaining benefits from being [00:33:00] in space. And so if you're going up in space, you better make sure that you have good control over your satellite, whether it be the harsh environmental conditions of space themselves, or those that are, um, launched by nefarious actors.
And so I'll talk a little bit about that, some strategies to preventing it. And I might just add a few other discussions about dangers in space as well, which is about the harsh environment, but things that you need to think about and hopefully promote the idea and, and have people that develop satellites really begin to make cybersecurity part of the way they develop their satellite.
Steve Hamm: Yeah. Interesting. Malign actors. I mean, a lot of them are kind of financially oriented or, you know, national security oriented, but some of them are just, you know, evil, you know, and they just want to, they [00:34:00] just want to screw things up and they want to be kind of, I don't know, know they want, they want their, their work to be seen.
Is that something that you see around, you know, some of the satellites or even the international space station or are you just so far, you know, are these communications that work for so locked down that that's not a factor,
Renee Wynn: So cybersecurity is driven by fun fame or fortune or combination of the three, which is what you just described. Steve, I give it the three apps, right? So in a non-classified environment, w one, it is possible. Satellites are connected to earth through their mission control centers and that, and the way mission control centers are designed their identity and access management [00:35:00] capabilities, their architecture of the mission control centers.
And so there's, um, mission control centers for science. I like to describe them as apartment buildings. So if you imagine apartment building and, um, odors from something happening in an apartment, uh, let's make it a, a good smell. Like somebody making, you know, a lovely cinnamon boiling cinnamon, and it just smells like delicious cookies or they're making chocolate chip cookies. you smile thinking about chocolate cookies also makes you hungry and wish that you had one. Well, that smell emanates because the apartment buildings are all interconnected. Well, cybersecurity is about the interconnected nature of our devices and those devices in space. If you aren't careful, and haven't designed for cyber security, you could unintentionally be interconnected with something you really don't want to be connected with.
And [00:36:00] so I'm, I try to bring to light that you need to think differently and think about protecting your assets. Um, if anything, you need to protect your reputation. And so what is possible and Terrafirma is possible in space. And that's why planning to talk a little bit about.
Steve Hamm: Yeah, it sounds good now. Um, I noticed you did serve for many years in the EPA, which is really I've talked. I raved about NASA, but the EPA as well. I mean, I remember the first birthday, Rachel Carson is my God, you know, things like that. And, um, I wonder if you can talk about, uh, I mean, you haven't been there for five years.
I know, but you know, there's a lot of attention these days with figuring out how we can be more sustainable. Um, you know, how to deal with, with, uh, global warming, climate change, things like that. When you look around and just based on all the knowledge that you acquired over these years, [00:37:00] how can technology help the United States and the world and the communities around the world become more sustainable and reset.
Renee Wynn: I'm so glad you asked that, Steve. So I'll go back to the hurricanes and I've got a couple other ideas to share as well. So with hurricanes. Rebuilding after a hurricane. What you're seeing are the data that we understand about our planet and that we understand about water and flooding cities after a significant event.
And they have to, let's say they replace infrastructure or rebuild housing. If they're going to rebuild the housing, they're building it more resilient to the next flood or the next, um, water gushing into the subway or something like that. So you're seeing resilience being built into infrastructure that itself in the cities, especially coastal [00:38:00] cities, then you've got food.
So California has had its fires and, um, and that has affected crops. I know it's affected grapes. Cause I personally like wine, but it's affected other crops. And so understanding whether and its effect moisture, you know, whether you're getting rain too much rain, not enough rain, all of that data are now being used to help farmers, what to plant when to plant, when to be cautious, what's going to happen.
What are your risks associated with it? So farmers themselves can make better, or I'm not saying better, maybe more informed decisions about the risks they may be facing during the growing season. And then that downstream effect is you and our access [00:39:00] to the food that they're providing and what can, and can't hit our table and the price of what.
Hitting our table or the table of the restaurants. And so you have a supply chain issue that we've all certainly learned about during the pandemic. And so there's a lot of data from space about the planet and there's data that didn't emanate from space. It's just here on earth. The sensors that are here on earth and being taken, and that is, is being implemented in making changes or risk-based to change changes in the agricultural business.
Um, and then that obviously affects you and I, and they use a lot of, um, information for energy sources and how to find good energy sources. Uh, hopefully more sustainable energy sources are coming online, which we're starting to see and not. And so there's a lot going on in this area, [00:40:00] um, that I find very exciting.
Um, and we're as humans, we're tackling it and, you know, the advent of electrical electric cars, you know, it's another good thing. Although battery disposal is, you know, the next challenge with every iteration, there are solving challenges in the next challenges. And that's just, what's so beautiful about, um, about people is we're naturally very curious.
And so many of us are focused on improvement and meeting those challenges for improvements.
Steve Hamm: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when they come back down to earth here for a minute, great. Now you have had some very. Chief kind of chief information officer positions in, in government yet, here we are, you know, it's 20, 21 and there still have not been a lot of women holding important CIO positions in large organizations. Why do you think that is? And what do you think should be done to change the situation?[00:41:00]
Renee Wynn: Yeah. So when I switched into it world from environmental policy and environmental policy was surrounded by great women. In fact, at EPA, they've had female administrators and that was during my tenure there. So it was
Steve Hamm: that was Christie, Todd Whitman. And there were some others, right?
Renee Wynn: yes.
And Carol browner as well as Lisa
Steve Hamm: Oh, I forgotten them.
Renee Wynn: Yeah. So I was there for, for all of them, and it was really great to look up and see women running things, because then you, if you can see something, then you can more easily imagine what's possible for yourself. So here in 2022, uh, I, it feels like we are intentional in terms of.
Looking for diversity in our positions. And that is diversity by ethnicity, by race, by gender [00:42:00] it's by thought, by scientific background, it's by all of the elements, it's it. Maybe it's a little bit about not hiring somebody. Who's just like you. Um, and then being able to put the work in for a really constructive relations, a positive, productive, and constructive relationship.
And it was disappointing when I got to it. I was like, there is no line at the ladies room and Jaren, I'm going to try and change that. And I could change that where I was hiring and I made very intentional effort to do that. You're I found if I didn't focus and do things differently to build. Candidate pool of diverse candidates, then how was I expecting it to change?
Steve Hamm: right, right.
Renee Wynn: So you need to be intentional. And I advertised [00:43:00] federal government jobs. Yes. You got to go to the USA jobs.gov to apply, but we posted them on jobs, boards, women in tech, dice.com. You know, wherever we found an organization that would have the talent that might want to come to NASA. That's where we advertised it.
And I did have to pay for that posting, but it was a small price to pay for making a difference in longterm in the organization that I was running. Um, so it begins with being intentional. Then you have to understand your own biases and you have to understand language you used. So, um, I've been exposed to language that, um, horrified me.
And I mean that in a humorous way, when people talked about executives in this particular organization [00:44:00] as gray beards, I would say, oh my gosh, one, I guess I'll never get that job because I'll never get a gray beard. Or if I got a gray beard, oh my goodness. I need to go talk to my doctor. Right? How horrifying.
I'm a little vanity here. Right? I like, oh my gosh. If I got a gray beard, I don't think I'd want to have that position. So I read. I know, so I really thought about it. And then I realized I had the position and I had the power to make the change.
Steve Hamm: Yeah. Well,
Renee Wynn: And I did. And I will say that after I had a fabulous conversation with the head of an organization who understood in the humorous way I presented it, how mortified I would be to be called a gray beard and how maybe I was being [00:45:00] judged negatively because I wasn't a gray beard.
Steve Hamm: Um,
Renee Wynn: I never heard the term again. So
Steve Hamm: about making people aware. Sensitizing.
Renee Wynn: So what are your biases? We all have them. They've kept us alive for thousands of years. What is your language be open to listening, drop you, you know, be humble and be intentional. In terms of how you hire and take a look at your systems structures, you know, like hiring and make sure there aren't barriers to that.
And so I think the bottom line is, is if you want to change your organization, you at the helm of that organization, you are the catalyst to change and you're going to have to stay on it and make it happen and stay on top of your culture to be inviting and welcoming to
Steve Hamm: yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's really [00:46:00] inspiring, you know, I, in, in January, 16. I went to a large event in Washington, DC, late, late in the January. And there were about 2 million people there. And I would say three-quarters of them were women and it was the women's March. And it was so inspiring and that a lot of people carry this sign that said the future is female.
And right there, I said, I hope it is. I mean, I, I feel like men have, you know, look at the 20th century, look at what men did in the 20th century. It's like, you need much more evidence than that. So, uh, I really welcomed these kinds of changes. And you see so many young women, you know, in, in university, in college and now in graduate school, in medical school, It's more than 50% and the next step is leadership.
And I think what you've talked about is, is the ways that that's how it has to get done as to the awareness and people who want to make it [00:47:00] happen. It's it's not, it doesn't happen by itself. So congratulations for doing that.
Renee Wynn: Yeah, thanks for that. And you're right. And thanks for joining the March. And it goes back to the points we started with Steve collaboration and the product that you developed is bad. With different thoughts, different perspectives, uh, you know, different experiences re you know, I was raised in the Washington DC area.
I've had very different experiences from somebody who is raised in Louisiana. Well, the way we go about and think about providing it services is probably got that slant in it as well. And I mean that in a positive way. So when we talk it through and work it, we get a better product and you should thank women for drink holders in your card.
Right. We finally are starting designing cars and, you know, years ago, and, you know, we were like, yeah, well, I'm carrying the [00:48:00] kids. And I got a bottle in my hand. What am I supposed to do with it? Um, slopping it into a drink holder makes, makes the journey safer and all the inhabitants in the car happier.
Steve Hamm: Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's good. You know, uh, we're coming to the end of our podcast. We usually, we, we like to talk about kind of more personal things, lighter kinds of things. And, you know, as a storyteller, I know that people really enjoy hearing about a turning point and an aha moment when somebody kind of gets it and starts behaving in a different way or interacting in a different way.
So do you have a leadership aha moment? You can tell them.
Renee Wynn: I do. And I'll present it to you with the greatest humility and vulnerability that I can. I had requested to be a leader. And I do know that you don't get to label yourself a leader because leader is not a [00:49:00] position. It's your it's motivating and inspiring others, not dictating and demanding. It's not signing time cards either.
That's a management supervisory job. And so I read a lot of books and I thought that by behaving is the books said that I was being a leader. Well, I, um, went to an offsite retreat when I was in a new organization and I left that. Hadn't been with the organization long, like weeks. And I left the left, the meeting.
We had a awesome organizational develop, meant person facilitating the discussion. And I pulled her aside. I said, listen, I have never had the training or been in an, in an organization where I felt so much tension between people. And she said, Hey, come back with me to the office. And I'm like, okay, great.
So, you know, back to her office and [00:50:00] she hands me this book and it says leadership and self deception.
Steve Hamm: Hmm.
Renee Wynn: And I was taken aback and, and I, I do not play poker for good reason. I just looked at her like, well, who do you think you are? Handing me a book that talks about self-deception facial expression, not words.
Steve Hamm: Yeah.
Renee Wynn: And she looks at me and she says, no, just go ahead and read it. Here's a little study guide and let me know. So I walk out, trust the process, right? She's an organizational development professional. I'm not. So I crack open that book and I loved the book and that book is about mindset and how you think of others.
So then this book had the missing piece to my quest for leadership. And I do hope that it, in every way that I tried to implement it, it showed that when you focus [00:51:00] on others needs, they know it. And you build a connection and the ability to inspire and lead through that connection because you are demonstrating genuinely their needs matters.
Steve Hamm: Go ahead then.
Renee Wynn: When I interact with somebody and I just want to make it a transaction, you get my transaction done, humans, know it.
Steve Hamm: Yeah.
Renee Wynn: And the way they behave towards me is probably pudding. And then I behave off-putting and then they behave off off-putting and you get into this collusion of swords and everybody's really comfortable with it and they wear it with self, just do they justify well, that person is just this, that stops with you. And that's what that book was. And there's a series of books and, uh, I loved it and I [00:52:00] read the series of books and my husband did, and my son did. And we try to use it as a signal to each other when we feel we're not being treated well to have those conversations, because sometimes it's just hard to signal to have the conversation because you're afraid somebody might blow up or something like that.
But when you can have the conversations to help people feel respected and like a valued person, then you make them that is in fact leading you down the path of leadership.
Steve Hamm: Yeah. Well, that was a great lesson for you, even though at first kind of took you aback. Yeah. But I that's. That's what makes it an aha moment, I guess. So, anyway, thank you for that story. Hey, I want to tell you, you know, clearly I've just really enjoyed hearing your stories about EPA and about, about NASA.
And I I'm really touched also by the thing you said right at the top [00:53:00] about how you have the copy of the constitution, um, in your company. And so you can refer to it. And I think that is a reminder of the dedication of government employees and especially a federal employees. And I think there's kind of some in our society, there's sometimes kind of this, this, I don't know whether it's just stained for government and it kind of slips over into, into government employees.
And I think it's really important for people to realize what a tremendous service people do. I mean, we thank military people for their service. I think we should thank government people for their services. So I want to thank you for your 30 years of service to our country,
Renee Wynn: Well, Steve, thank you for that. And, um, it's been great chatting with you. I'd love to getting to know you a little bit on this podcast. Uh, sharing some of my stories about delivering it in space, as well as, um, [00:54:00] my career in the federal government. And, and I appreciate the, um, I appreciate you honoring the federal civil servants as well.
They, they do some amazing things and it's really cool. So get to know a fed or a state federal state employee rate, or even a local government employee or a tribal government employee rate, get to know them. We are the person that really does care about making sure you get what you need. We heard is frustrated by bureaucracy too.
Um, but most of us were really give our heart and soul to give you what you need from our government agents.