In this episode, Bill Stratton, Global Head of Media, Entertainment, and Advertising at Snowflake, sits down with Ravi Kandikonda, SVP of Marketing at Zillow. Ravi shares his experiences and insights on modern software development, talks about how his academic background prepared him for modern marketing, and what Zillow is doing to approach personalization at scale.
In this episode, Bill Stratton, Global Head of Media, Entertainment, and Advertising at Snowflake, sits down with Ravi Kandikonda, SVP of Marketing at Zillow. Ravi shares his experiences and insights on modern software development, talks about how his academic background prepared him for modern marketing, and what Zillow is doing to approach personalization at scale.
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[00:00:00] Producer: Hello and welcome to the Data Cloud Podcast. Today's episode features an interview with Ravi Kandikonda, Senior VP of Marketing at Zillow, hosted by Bill Stratton, Global Head of Media, Entertainment, and Advertising at Snowflake. In this episode, Ravi shares how he and his team are working to change consumer habits, the importance of reducing friction with AI, and how Zillow is approaching customer personalization at scale. Before we dive in, here's a message from our sponsor.
Looking for the latest insights into how the martech landscape is changing in a world redefined by AI, privacy, and data gravity? Download Snowflake's third annual Modern Marketing Data Stack at snowflake. com slash M M D S to understand how the role of the marketer is changing. Link is in the show notes.
Now enjoy this interview between Ravi Kandikonda and your host, Bill Stratton.
[00:00:59] Bill Stratton: Hi, everyone. Welcome to our podcast today. I'm super excited to have a wonderful guest. My name is Bill Stratton. I'm the go to market head for media, entertainment, and advertising vertical here at Snowflake.
And I'm so excited to be joined today by Ravi Kandikonda from Zillow Group. Super excited for this conversation today. So let's just jump in. Okay. It's always a great, you know, understanding for listeners to, to get a perspective on what led you to this transition, what led you to where you are today. I think probably everyone out there is a super user of Zillow. I know I am, but would love to understand kind of how you got to where you are today.
[00:01:45] Ravi Kandikonda: Yeah, sounds good, Bill. I mean, each of us have had our own journeys to get to where we are. My journey started when I was watching awesome creative and storytelling build phenomenal brands, both locally but globally. And some of the ones that I grew up watching were Cadbury.
Then if you think about Intel Inside, when the computers were coming out and how it democratized everything in terms of access to computing. And IBM and all these brands that were coming out really had a way to tell an amazing story. So as I was watching Some of that got fascinated with marketing and my academic background is computer science with specialization and operations research, which people also refer to as management science.
And it entails components like logic, decision making, optimization, and so on and so forth. And marketing now is actually not just creative storytelling anymore, right? It is creative storytelling. It is data. It is technology. It is business. business, it is operations. So my academic background prepared me for modern marketing and to be able to combine that with this amazing storytelling that builds brands and Zillow is a very well loved and trusted brand and how do we actually continue to keep it at the top of customers minds is an amazing journey.
[00:03:18] Bill Stratton: I want it noted that you were able to combine the term OR or operations research with the term branding in a, in a single introduction, which I think certainly three, four or five years ago, you wouldn't find that happening. And I think, you know, today, you're probably on the forefront. of the kind of skillset and capability that CMOs and brands need.
But I love the fact that, you know, what, what struck me and I'm, I'm like you, I remember every iconic branding campaign way back from Atlanta, you know, Coca Cola, obviously we've had some some amazing branding campaigns and experiences and Intel inside and others, but you connected the nature of what a brand can mean to consumers.
With. You know, an understanding of technology that, you know, is a practice that never seemed to cross over before, right? And the fact that, that you're in your career now and doing that, and that's what led you to this place is, I think, kind of a foreshadowing of what's going to happen for, for every brand in the future.
[00:04:35] Ravi Kandikonda: You're spot on, Bill. I remember. This article, I think it was 2007, 2008, New York Times wrote this article saying data is the sexiest profession of the next decade. And now all of that's been accelerated by the fact that there is mobile now, we have location specific information, we can actually understand customers motivations and, and what their needs are with a level of precision that we didn't have before.
And in the absence of the data, marketing was very much a game of storytelling to the mass, right? And then, you know, a portion of them will convert into users, passionate followers, and so on and so forth. As the data became more and more available, skillset around analytics, data science, optimization, all coming to play in a way that really gives the marketer an explanation, a way to explain to the business what exactly we are driving as an impact.
And there is this obviously well known phrase that, yeah, we have spent a Some money on marketing, I can't tell which, which part worked. And I think we can never actually tell exactly what is driving short term impact, what's driving long term impact and how we can be stewards of not just long term brand building, but actual business outcomes.
[00:06:02] Bill Stratton: Yeah. The Wanamaker quote, I think we've all seen and used it a lot. I think to your point, like on the other side of that, it's not just, you can You know, performance is done exactly, but you actually know, because you're predicting what the performance is going to be ahead of time, how to refine that over and over and over again, which comes back to your OR and operations research.
Cause if I can optimize, if I'm predicting outcome and then I'm optimizing it in a logical and a repeatable way in a feedback loop, then I'm. Improving, you know, everything that I'm doing. The other thing I just, I wanted to tell you, you mentioned 2007, 2008, New York Times, data is the future. I think it was around that time, or maybe a few years later, I was somewhere and someone gave me a shirt, a t shirt that said, data is the new bacon.
And it was a, it was sort of a, you know, an eye opening thing. Cause you're like, okay, we, we understand it. I think. And I'm going to use this to kind of transition into more of what your focus areas are at Zillow, but I find it interesting because we've gone from, like, trying to explain the importance of data, you know, at a broad level to now, you know, we don't have to explain why it's important anymore, you're getting into how to deploy it.
and leverage it in, you know, scenarios and capabilities that, you know, now it's a given, right? The real key is like, how are you differentiating yourself with it, right? So, love to use that question maybe to have you spend more time talking about your focus areas at Zillow now as well.
[00:07:52] Ravi Kandikonda: Yeah, before I get into the Zillow specific example, I also think it was right around that time, like my transition from a financial services, cross sell marketing person to the agency side when I was with Ogilvy, the traditional way how agencies positioned themselves in pitches to clients was talking about creative.
This was right around this time that data actually became the differentiator to winning, um, clients and showing the impact. And that was right around the time when marketers who have the quantitative skills started getting invited to the rooms that they were not in before. Right. If you think about the The pitches are the boardrooms or strategy conversations and so forth.
So that's been a pretty amazing change to see. And to your point, at Zillow, we're a very data driven company. As you can imagine, the amount of customer trust and love that the brand has, we take it very seriously and consider it as a privilege and are always trying to make sure that we keep that customer experience goal as our not star and the way we do that is by understanding customers very very well What are their real needs?
How do we help them navigate the journey? And to be able to do that, and I'll dimensionalize it a little bit. We've got 230 plus million unique users every single month. And if I were to contrast that with there are 4 million whole house transactions this year. So just if you can imagine the drop off in the funnel and there are about 20 plus million renters.
So you're, you're looking at a pretty substantially diverse set of journeys that are happening within this customer base. And if I am. A business leader responsible for rentals versus if I'm a business leader responsible for buying and selling inside of the homes. I need to know how exactly we are reaching that particular customer and telling our story.
[00:10:09] Bill Stratton: You just talked about the customer journey and the funnel. You have almost invented the upper funnel of the customer journey itself. Because the way that consumers experience your brand and, and the application and the, and the content and everything else is changing consumer habits. And therefore you're one of the, you know, drivers of the new consumer journey itself, you know, and I, I don't know this, you tell me if this is right, but like that funnel.
may have been a hundred million before, but because of the experience that you're, that you offer consumers is so refreshing, enjoyable, you know, exploring all these things that you are now redefining the customer journey, and then you're obviously going to define the funnel differently because you're defining the customer journey.
[00:11:09] Ravi Kandikonda: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Just going, thinking back to what our founders share in terms of how they actually started the, the company, it was very hard to actually. understand what kind of home inventory was out there when they were going through their own purchase journey. And like, wow, how, how powerful would it be if we could actually just bring all of these together and put in front of customers so that they can look at all the available inventory and make choices based on that.
And that alone caused all of the, um, the growth in The, the kind of demand that we have seen coming to the site and what started off as, let me go find out how much of how much my home is worth, which is all at that point in time, driven by AI that existed at that point in time, right? A version of it is estimate to now actually being the place where customers come in.
And dream, but can also find a pathway. And that goes back to your comment on the, on the funnel. There are, uh, we have a new set of product that we just launched called Buyability. And the reason we launched the product is the number one hurdle that customers face in the whole process of buying journey is financing.
[00:12:27] Bill Stratton: Right.
[00:12:28] Ravi Kandikonda: And being able to understand what they can effort. And being able to understand how and who can actually help them through that journey is a major hurdle and being able to give them an ability to get that understanding without any, almost, I almost want to call it judgment because people are judgmental.
Share, share some of that information of everyone and being able to share that with a brand that they trust and can guide them to the path that they want to go to is all driven by data. It's all driven by us then taking the data and customizing that interaction to make sure that they're making. That the customers are making progress.
[00:13:09] Bill Stratton: Right. I mean, it's interesting because your trust, you've helped them become better educated about the search process, the value, valuation process, you know, geographical, all these educational areas that you've helped them understand better. And now that brand trust that you've built through that, is now being leveraged or used for them, you know, further down in the funnel, right?
[00:13:36] Ravi Kandikonda: Yea, there is an interesting stat, which it's actually not a very good stat. The process of home buying, especially at that point of that lower funnel is so complicated. The kind of, the number of parties involved, the kind of different system, different places where this transaction is happening.
[00:13:55] Bill Stratton: How can a customer keep track of that?
[00:13:55] Ravi Kandikonda: It is reported that about a third of. Or more of customers actually literally cry during the process of moving. For, I think the majority of the people that might be the only largest transaction that they will make in their lifetime. And to be able to make that as joyful as it can be, as seamless as it can be.
And as, Fulfilling as it can be because a home is more than just a purchase, right? There is, there is so much goes on in there and we want to make it so much easier to get there. And the housing super app strategy is essentially grounded in that. How can we actually take the. The experience that we have in search and when a customer is ready to transact or think of a move, they can understand data affordability.
They can actually find financing. They can actually then go identify the humans because tech alone can't solve all of these solutions. So the agents, the loan officers, and being able to track it all in one place so that they know with certainty where they are in the journey, I think is, is great. It's priceless for a lot of these customers.
[00:15:07] Bill Stratton: The statement and your goal of making home a reality for more and more people. I think you just answered how and why you're doing this. Is there anything else you want to add to that mission that you have?
[00:15:21] Ravi Kandikonda: The one thing that I would want to add. There is the reason why we call it more and more people.
Right. And going back to the segments, like we obviously are a very heavy customer data company. And when we analyze the segment, the single most blocker to house ownership is financing and getting them the help they need. To essentially be in that journey, right? So if you think about the pieces that are talked about around affordability, around humans that can actually help them, that's where we want to make the process seamless so that more and more people can actually go and get the transaction.
So it was a very intentional use of that word. So that's, that's one. And then the second thing is if I look at the overall Landscape of things that we as a company can do and here is where something internally that we grapple with like, oh my goodness We have so much work to do and let's actually go build a lot of things.
But wait a minute We don't have the resources to do all Is there a way we can prioritize what we as a company need to do and the purpose of making home? A reality more in people serves as the mechanism through which we use to determine which ones we do first.
[00:16:39] Bill Stratton: So let me, let me see if I can pick up on that prioritization that you mentioned.
When you get into a consumer experience and a consumer journey, I think you end up having to go towards a personalization experience. How do you think about personalization? One. Two, though, You know, you're not talking about to a thousand people. You've got 230 million customers and consumers. So how do you think about personalization at scale?
Which is antithetical, right? I've scaled personalization, but personalization should be done the right way, as personal, one to one as possible.
[00:17:21] Ravi Kandikonda: So, yeah, yeah, and personalization works best when it's contextual and when it's relevant. Without that, I mean, customers, I think, have come to expect that When some brand or anyone reaches out to them, they acknowledge them by their name.
That to me is a, is a given now, right? Like, what does that mean? What does personalization mean to our customers? And an example that I'll use here is Let's say there is, there are two customers that are in the millennial segment, and they're, they're starting to look for their home. And one is looking for a home in New York City, and another one is looking for a home in the Bay Area.
Their journey starts. These are not similar, the kind of home they're looking for, the price points that they're looking for, the features that they're looking for, and the way that the market dynamics are in that area are all different. And here is where the technology and the data that we will go deeper into as we continue the conversation will become important.
And when I can go do that to the customer in the right way. Then that builds trust because there is a clear value proposition that is being offered to the customer. And that is a real benefit to how you build a brand. And that's a perfect combination of a very, very Relevant product, but also message that goes along with them, that guides them through their journey and gets them to the end point without any breakage in between is what I call as personalization.
That's what we are very, very focused on and delivering.
[00:19:11] Bill Stratton: Let's talk a little bit more about personalization. Obviously, it's a hyper local or a local orientation that you have in the customer journey and your consumers and the trust. It does seem like you're constantly earning the relevancy and the trust that personalization brings.
Talk about that, I think, because you don't have the flexibility, let's say, to all of a sudden, one day, not be relevant. Okay? So, you know, not only are you scaling to 200 plus million consumers that you have, but every step of the journey has to have that Personalization and trust as part of it. So let's spend a minute hearing your thoughts on that.
[00:19:56] Ravi Kandikonda: Yeah. And that's the, the real crux of why Zillow as a brand is at the center of customers minds when they think of home, right? The fact that we are searched more than the term real estate comes from that. I'll share with you the journey, right? When we were focused on And putting the relevant content in front of the customers, depending upon the area that they're looking for.
It was, it was a challenge, but it was a relatively easier problem to solve because we could look at Each customer, the areas that they were interested in, and therefore the content that we put in front of them in whatever channel that they were engaging with us was an easier problem to solve. Now, taking that example, and if I were to take that millennial who is looking at the two millennials, one in New York and the other in Bay Area, There are multiple neighborhoods in each of these, and they could be pursuing homes in each of these areas.
So, how, when do I identify the moment they're about to move from search slash dreaming state to a transaction state is an important identifier. So that's number one, where we have put a lot of time and effort and intelligence to make sure that we can engage more. So that's one example in terms of how we use personalization at scale.
[00:21:23] Bill Stratton: That sounds like it's going to lead us. Naturally, to the next question, which is a little bit more of how you're using data, right, and, and as a critical part of that, you know, strategy, and how your data strategy and your personalization and, and relevancy become intertwined, would love to hear you talk a little bit more for our data listeners.
I think we've got people out there that are listening. Marketers identify, obviously, with everything you've done amazingly well. We've also got data practitioners on the other side of the spectrum and everybody in between. So spend a little bit of time with your data side of your brain and talking about how you're applying it with Zillow as well.
[00:22:03] Ravi Kandikonda: Yeah. Again, you know, going back to the 230 plus million, it was down to the transaction volume. If you think about the data that essentially each of these interactions There are essentially two, um, areas we, we, we gotta be really good at. Number one is, um, capturing those events and making sure that we are categorizing them the right way.
So the capture part. And then the second piece is making sure that the usage of the data in an intelligent manner, we as, as, as a company can deliver to the customers that relevant experiences that we just talked about. Yeah. So if I look at our Total tech and data ecosystem. We have spent a lot of time in upgrading our capabilities in terms of how we capture that info, how we categorize it.
Then how do we actually make sure that that data is disseminated to different parts of the company, including marketing? And there are different parts, right? One is the AI team that action shopping team that looks at, okay, customer X has come in and, is looking at the site, what homes will they be interested in, and how do I actually manifest that when they're on the site.
Similarly, if a marketer is engaging with that customer to say, you've been thinking of us for search, now you think of us for other services, what service do I need to talk to them based upon the journey that they're in? It cannot be disconnected. Similarly, if there is a loan officer, Or one of our premier agents who is interacting with them.
All of this chain needs to be on the same page. Otherwise, we will be showing the seams of our organizational structure, which I don't think is a good customer experience, right? But to me, it is about how do I make it easier for our teams that are using this to be able to send that info and use it effectively.
[00:24:07] Bill Stratton: What I find fascinating, Ravi, about what you just said is that the marketing function is actually become the hub and spoke or the hub of the data, you know, capability that many teams and components of the organization have. and have to leverage and access. And that's interesting, right? Because in a lot of organizations, you know, an IT team or others might have almost all of the data, and it's very hard to get access to it as a functional group.
You're on the other side as a functional group, Obviously supported by, by technology, but it's a hub and spoke so that you're leading that effort and driving that understanding of the consumer. Yeah,
[00:24:56] Ravi Kandikonda: and you're the other point to that aspect is explaining the value. All the efforts that each of these teams do, just being able to measure effectively what works and what doesn't and being able to go proactively calibrate and going back to my background, optimize, right, is a key aspect of my relationship with my finance org and with my business counterparts so that they have the trust that we are deploying The valuable mind space that the customers have and, and, and, and the resources that internally we have to be as effective as they can be. And I think that's the point of collaboration.
[00:25:43] Bill Stratton: Well, you certainly understand the gravity of the importance of your function and your role, right? That you play. I have to ask, it's a snowflake relationship with Zillow as well. Would love to hear and have our audience understand how you're Leveraging Snowflake, our AI data cloud, you know, we've gone from simply a data cloud now.
With AI coming into it, they're not two separate things. You can't have AI without data. You can't have, you know, data realization and optimization without now leveraging AI technologies. So help us understand that from a Zillow perspective.
[00:26:22] Ravi Kandikonda: Sure. And we have been using Snowflake for the past, I think, couple of years.
If I were to go back to the use cases that we just talked about, the amount of complexity there is in understanding who the customer is. We always had very good understanding of what customers do on our platform. So we have very, very rich first party, but customers also have lives outside of So how do we actually better understand them and understand better profile through a combination of first party and third party data and to be able to do that securely?
That's number one in terms of how we leverage Snowflake to make sure that we're doing that securely and effectively. So that's, that's one part, but the second and the most important part that we're also leveraging the platform for is How can I now take this rich understanding and be able to connect to the systems outside of the marketing ecosystem?
Going back to your point of mark tech ecosystem is cannot exist in isolation of operating environment in terms of how our front line is delivering experiences for customers. So bringing it all together and be able to customize at the level of granularity that we're talking about. is all a capability that we have partnered with Snowflake on.
It's been a very valuable relationship that we continue to rely more on.
[00:27:46] Bill Stratton: Well, it's, it's a two way street, right? We hope that we're a partner as well as, you know, obviously you being a customer. And what I think I mean by that, and you, I want your take on this is, you know, it used to be that you would have to send your data.
To the marketing application. And one of the big important areas for Snowflake is, well, why not reverse that? Why not bring your application to where your data is? Right? So we have hundreds and hundreds, thousands of companies now building applications for marketing and advertising that are, you know, You know, use natively on Snowflake so that you're not sending your data anywhere.
The application is coming to the data. I think you're experiencing that as well, which is the more we're driving companies to do that, as a partner for you, you're leveraging that, that application as well.
[00:28:47] Ravi Kandikonda: Absolutely. And it is. Paramount for us because of the amount of importance we attach to customer data and how we want to keep it secure as well as in making sure that we are leveraging it the best way possible.
[00:29:03] Bill Stratton: We've gone into this now as a discussion and we really haven't talked about AI at all. Please help our audience understand how you think about AI and how you're leveraging it for, for Zillow.
[00:29:17] Ravi Kandikonda: Yeah, and I'll go back to the complexity of the transaction that our customers have to go through. So, there are two parts to how we are deploying AI.
First is, as we enhance our understanding of the customer, their needs, and the best How can we stitch those experiences on our surfaces? Could be any Zillow surface that they are interacting with. Needs to be highly connected. And today it is quite a challenge. A laborious process with a lot of manual intersections and work that goes on.
So to me, as we are looking at the technology, we are trying to understand how can we actually simplify it. So that's number one. There is a clear and tangible customer benefit to it.
[00:30:15] Bill Stratton: So that sounded to me like some of the AI work that you're doing is, is allowing you to scale where there was manual processes.
that were challenging and the scalability is an important part of what you're leveraging AI for not into, you know, we're not talking about replacing people's jobs and all of this thing, but you can create scalable capability through the AI. You know, executions that you're doing.
[00:30:52] Ravi Kandikonda: Again, going back to the millions of permutations and combinations that are out there that are just impossible to be able to be customized.
But now think about the other side of the coin, which is the internal employee benefits. Sure. So they not having to deal with, if I can already get delivered that's connected. curated set of flow internally to our employees first and help them understand where the customer is, what their needs are, and having it actually manifest in front of that screen.
They will be that much more productive in delivering the best customer experience, which gifts customer experience and business results, you know, better employee morale and so forth. So those are the two ways. There is a customer angle and then there is a very heavy internal angle in terms of how we improve our operational efficiencies and effectiveness that we think will power the next phase of growth.
[00:31:49] Bill Stratton: Do you think that, and, and, um, I think that we can touch on the fact that the Snowflake platform and the organization of your data, first and third party, and the fact that it, you know, stays stationary and you're bringing applications to it, the same thing is applying on the AI side, right? You can't leverage the AI elements that you're looking to deliver for personalization or the experience or the optimization if your data isn't organized and set up properly and then can interact with the AI elements where the data is as well. Do you agree with that?
[00:32:25] Ravi Kandikonda: I 100 percent agree with that. In fact, majority of the work that we have done in the Past few years has been to organize the data in the right Fashion again, going back to the comment we were having on conversation we were having on data. How do you categorize it? Capturing, categorizing, and putting it in a place where we can bring these AI applications to come in and be able to take advantage of that wide swath of intelligence to, to make recommendations is where. I think the next huge unlock of better experience is.
[00:33:04] Bill Stratton: I do think you just touched on it, but I'd love to hear you expound on it a bit more, where the level of personalization and relevancy and trust perhaps was, you know, in one understanding pre AI because of the manual processes and maybe the data wrangling that had to be done.
And now. There's going to be a forward looking understanding of personalization, leveraging all these technologies for trust and all the things that you talked about. So, give us a few of your predictions or views on where you think AI is headed. Here's the thing, you have a trusted brand, and then you have a technology that in some areas of industries is Is, you know, with deep fakes and other things, you know, doing the opposite of what you've done with a trusted brand.
Would love to kind of hear how you think or desire to harness this.
[00:34:04] Ravi Kandikonda: Yeah, and I would say, you know, there are, there is a central tenet into which, uh, through which I think about all of this.
[00:34:10] Bill Stratton: Yeah.
[00:34:11] Ravi Kandikonda: And that is reducing friction. And if I use that as a tenet, and I think of how AI will make customer interactions go from any stage of their customer journey to the next seamlessly, I think AI will enable that.
And remove friction. And if I were to look inward against some of that, going back to our conversation on technology systems, connected data, how do I parse out what decision to make and what decision do I, what particular action do I send out in what channel? That's a constant source of debate in a lot of organizations, especially in marketing, and I think AI will be.
The next unlock in getting that to a point where it is faster. That's right. So removing friction, enabling systems and processes to be that much more faster, and therefore customer expectations are going to be set at a point where They're going to be expecting all brands to be able to do that.
[00:35:30] Bill Stratton: What I love about hearing you talk is like any world class marketer, you are constantly thinking about your customer and the consumer and, and understanding where technology is going and how that impacts your ability to, to obviously please and build trust with your customer.
And it's so natural and, and instinctual for you. I think that's also a lesson. for folks listening is, you know, understand the technology, understand your consumer and how you're continually evolving for them and on their behalf. I want to thank you, first of all, for just an insightful conversation. I think many, many people can understand and learn from your journey and some of the things that you've talked about today.
Any parting thoughts that you'd like to share other than, you know, Please experience Zillow. I've already been on it several times this morning. It's an experience thing, as you've said, so I think you're hearing and getting an audience is very familiar with what you do, but any parting thoughts before we go?
[00:36:36] Ravi Kandikonda: First of all, Bill, really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for having me here. I think we are in one of the most exciting Times as a brand, but just from an industry standpoint, from a technology standpoint, the amount of data, the kind of technology infrastructure with AI now coming in and making things even more accelerated.
It is an exciting time to be a marketer, but also just in any kind of data space. So I'm looking forward to where this takes us.
[00:37:09] Bill Stratton: I love the embracing of technology for opening new doors and the excitement around it. I think we should end on that. This is a great time to be a marketer. It's a great time to be a data practitioner.
So, Ravi, thank you again for a wonderful conversation and best of luck with the Zillow group. Thank you very much, Bill. Thank you.
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